James Gosling has now joined the discussion about whether or not Sun will be open-sourcing Java any time soon.
It sounds as if they won't be doing it in a hurry. No decision has been taken, Gosling says, "despite any of the articles," a reference to the widespread media speculation over the past 48 hours that Jonathan Schwartz's Shanghai announcement about open-sourcing Solaris would inevitably be followed by a corresponding announcement from Sun about Java.
This is in line with Gosling's earlier statements on the issue. At JavaOne last June for example, he said:
"I am certainly one of the people who would love to make it open-source. But it's hard for two reasons. One is that open-source ways of dealing with software work really well so long as you get this sort of collegial atmosphere. If you happen to have a bully on the block who is really strong, it really doesn't work. We have this history of having been victimized, and there are lots of people who are nervous about that."
Scott McNealy, when last asked about open-sourcing Java, memorably quipped that Sun would open-source Java only when IBM did the same with DB2.
Here is what we reported at the time, back in March, when McNealy expressed concerns that open-sourcing Java might "fork" it:
[McNealy] rejected Eric Raymond's call to "Let Java Go" and noted Sun's longtime experience with the open source community.
"We've been around the block many times on open interfaces, open systems implementation, compatibility. Nobody has more experience on community development," McNealy said.
As he has done before, McNealy pointed to what he considers to be the fractured nature of Linux, where a Red Hat distro can have features not compatible with another flavor of Linux.
But he saved his most combative tone for IBM itself. Speaking to IBM through the assembled reporters in Washington, DC, he said:
"Go open source with DB2 and then you can tell me what to do with my assets."
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ben wrote: I'm a
developer using
Java/Swing. I have no
interest in tinkering
with the language itself.
I leave that up to Sun
and so far they have done
a pretty decent job of
it.
Trey Spiva wrote: How
will it help the Java
community to have Java
fracture? Because of the
lack of standards caused
by the fracturing of
Java, it will become
impossible for 3rd party
tool venders to support
the Java language.
Example: Linux is a GREAT
operating system.
However, few people us it
(except for the die hard
MS haters). Why? Becausae
it is too hard for the
common user to get
components to work on
Linux. Why? Because each
Linux kernal is different
and there are no
standards that 3rd party
venders can conform to.
So, instead we have each
kernal vender fighting
each other instead of a
organized attack to
defeat other operating
systems like MS windows.
This approach is doomed
to fail.
Jerf wrote: People are
naturally asking "What
does open sourcing Java
get us?"
My answer is "Java on the
desktop", where it has
been an abysmal failure.
Yep, there's three or
four applications you can
point at that are the
exception... now show me
20 or 30 common Java
desktop applications.
Imagine Java + QT or Java
+ GTK. I'm a Python
partisan and frankly
pretty much hate Java,
but you know, stick a
decent, time-test GUI
toolkit on it and I might
consider developing with
it in the future,
especially in light of
the other improvements
being made to it.
(Being able to program in
Java without making me
gag would probably
improve my employability
long term, though I'm
still running
successfully with "if I
never learn Java I'll
never have to program in
it" without limiting
myself as much as you
might think...)
openstandards.net wrote:
I've developed in
relational databases
since inception (dBase
II), including all major
commercial databases
today. I can tell you, I
am SO glad DB2 is not
open source or attempting
to be the Universal "run
anywhere" database of the
world. It is very behind
the times due to it's
extensive legacy customer
base. The only benefit it
has is performance on IBM
hardware.
k head wrote: Many people
sincerely believe that
open sourcing java will
help java.
IBM certainly has
invested a lot of money
in java and now they are
feeling uneasy about it.
you would too if you
spent billions of dollars
on a technology
completely controlled by
one of your competitors.
They want to help Sun
open source java so they
can continue to pour
money into it.
If Sun does not open
source it I predict IBM
will shift it's focus
away from java. They
might just open source
their own implementation
and call it something
else which would
seriously hurt sun.
0x0d0a wrote: DB2 is big
and complicated.
Big and complicated
projects have generally
not done all that well in
the past with respect to
gaining major open source
effort, because they're
complicated and hard to
jump into.
I'm not sure what the
point of open-sourcing
DB2 would be. We have
more than enough
databases to hack on
already that *are* open
source.
randyest wrote: we're mad
at Sun for not
open-sourcing Java. But
we can't say what,
exactly, we will gain
from open-source Java
that we don't have now
(other than the ability
to fork or otherwise
hassle Sun with dilution
and increased risk of
being MS-swamped)?
Deven wrote: I can
understand Sun's initial
reluctance to open-source
Java years ago --
Microsoft would have
(probably successfully)
embraced and extended
Java, as they indeed
tried to do. At the time,
the closed license was
beneficial.
Here's the compelling
reason for Sun to
open-source Java now --
Microsoft no longer has
an incentive to embrace
and extend Java. They've
done an end-run around
the Java license by
reimplementing a
virtually identical
language and calling it
C# instead of Java.
Microsoft will keep
pushing C# over Java, and
they're already
successfully stealing
away significant
mindshare from Java.
Microsoft has proven
their ability to
(illegally) leverage
their monopoly position
to acquire new markets. I
hate to say it, but in
the battle of C# vs.
Java, the smart money is
probably on C# unless
somet...
jared hanson wrote: Let's
say there was a fork, Sun
holds the trademark to
the Java name so said
fork could not promote
itself as "Java." If it
did, it would have a
lawsuit on its hands that
is a guaranteed loss.
If it forked, it would
become some other
language, and people
could decide to use it or
not based on its merits.
However, those in the
Java camp would know
where to look for the
Java they want.
Furthermore, example
proves this point. We
have languages like Perl,
Python, Ruby and
countless others that are
doing just fine in the
open source world.
metlin wrote: You forget
the fact that companies
that have vested
interests in killing Java
*cough* a certain Seattle
based company *cough*
could use this against
Java.
I'm NOT starting a flame
war here - but Microsoft
does not really consider
Perl or Python to be as
serious a contender as
Java.
What do you think really
inspired Visual Studio
.NET? Microsoft has
everything to gain by
killing it - it would
only more people to use
their platform.
Right now, Java gives
people the freedom of
platform - if in any way
killing it or changing it
in a way that makes it
beneficial to MSFT, they
WILL do it.
maugt wrote: If Sun
followed the Linux model
- and key engineers at
sun reviewed each change
and made sure that it was
ok to add to the release,
and followed through
everything openly, then
it would work.
Your argument doesn't
hold water. Where are all
the forks of Linux? Just
because it's a language
does not mean it will
fork and fracture. Perl
isn't forked to hell. Nor
is Python. Nor are many
open source languages.
If Sun truly believed in
open source (and I don't
believe they do), then
this would be a great
step forward for them.
And McNealy's challenge
to IBM to open source db2
is silly too; Sun makes
no money from selling
Java licenses (duh,
they're free), where as
IBM does make money from
db2.
metlin wrote: McNealy's
right. There is nothing
to stop Microsoft from
having their own
"Windows-only" forked
version of Java. And
nothing to stop from the
GNU/Debian crowd to have
their own "puritanical"
version. And nothing to
stop from IBM to have
their own
"enterprise-ready"
version of Java.
If you notice, even in
case of Linux, Linus and
a handful of others
actually maintain the
core kernel code. In case
of language, it would be
difficult to have this
kind of a central point
of control - the forking
would be really hard to
control.
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Red Hat is a trusted
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From Application
Virtualization to Xen, a
round-up of the
virtualization themes &
topics being discussed in
NYC June 23-24, 2008 by
the world-class speaker
faculty at the 3rd
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Mike Neil is general
manager for
virtualization strategy
in the Windows Server
Division at Microsoft.
Mike is focused on the
delivery of the Windows
virtualization
technology, including
Windows Server 2008
Hyper-V, Microsoft
Hyper-V Server and
Virtual PC 2007. Mike
also directs the tec
Red Hat is a trusted
open source provider.
Red Hat offers enterprise
customers a long-term
plan for building
infrastructures on the
quality and innovation of
open source. Combining
open source operating
system platform, Red Hat
Enterprise Linux,
together with
applications, management
